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Wheel flange on 4 Wheel Coaches.


Castle-Man

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I have 2 carriages that came in a R1037 GWR mixed Traffic set.  When I run these on a track that is not pinned down they have a tendancy to derail when the track moves or lifts on curves.  However I also have some individual R446 coaches that are much better running and stay on track.

When I compare the wheels on the two types it appears that the wheel flange on the R446 coaches is deeper.  Are the later Hornby wheel smaller / inferior and can they be replaced with something better or is it just my imagination?

Thanks

 

 

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The clue is where you say the track moves or lifts.

That's the problem, it should'nt!

Now to the flanges  these coaches are only 'toys' in the first place, as they are the wrong length.

You will possibly find that the ones with the deep flanges are the old Triang-Hornby ones, and the ones with the small flanges are much more recent.

You may also find that the deep-flanged wheels derail as they cross over a points 'frog', as modern track isn't quite as deep as the older Triang items. This has been mentioned many times before.

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The clue is where you say the track moves or lifts.

That's the problem, it should'nt!

Now to the flanges  these coaches are only 'toys' in the first place, as they are the wrong length.

You will possibly find that the ones with the deep flanges are the old Triang-Hornby ones, and the ones with the small flanges are much more recent.

You may also find that the deep-flanged wheels derail as they cross over a points 'frog', as modern track isn't quite as deep as the older Triang items. This has been mentioned many times before.

Actually it is the newer ones with the shallow flange that tends to derail.  The ones with the deep flange are much more stable.  They tip on a curve and then derail.  The only reason that the track lifts is because I have not finished my board to set the track out and nail it down.  Until then I am setting out different designs on the Dining table.  For me the enjoyment is running trains not building layouts and I do not want to wait  before running the trains.  It's good for them as well.  I suspect that pinning it down to the dinig table would not go down well.

I know that when it is finally layed out and pinned down then things will run better but train sets were originlly sold and still are as table top items that the family can lay out and play with on a table or bare floor.  (Not many of those left.)

 

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That is quite an old train set now. If the coaches have plastic wheels, then the flanges may have woaway, hence the derailments. it could be that the wheels needs replacing and if ao, replace the plastic wheels for metal wheels. All my rolling stock that had plastic wheels derailed more, than my rolling stock with metal wheels, so metal wheels are the better option for rolling stock.

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 The question of a smooth and level track as a means of avoiding derailments comes up time and time again.   It isn't essential that the track is pinned down (although it helps!) but each rail joint must be tight, straight and level. The rail joiners must be fully engaged and gripping the foot of both rails with no noticable gap between the rails of adjacent pieces. The finger test after you lay your rails is a good way to see if your joints are properly made, if you slide your finger over the joint you should not be able to feel it.  The underlying surface should also be flat so that there are no rapid changes in level, or spaces under the rails which allow the track to wobble up and down as the train passes over. Table cloths and Trackmats should not be wrinkled.

 

Points are the other source of problem. Model trains and track from different periods have been manufactured to different standards, Nowadays wheel and rail standards tend to be finer but if you go back 30 years or more the standards are much coarser and a mixture of old and new may give running problems.

 

Where one route crosses the other at points there is a special  arrangement of the rails. These involve flangeways and allow the flange of the wheel to pass across what should otherwise be a continuous rail.  At the actual point of intersection  is the common crossing (sometimes called a frog). Here the flanges are steered by wing rails through the flangeway gap, But to prevent a wheel passing the wrong side another flangeway is maintained along the adjacent rail by the provision of check rails. These act on the back of the flange keeping the other flange from hitting the nose (the pointy bit) in the common crossing.  The way it does this is by having the distance between the backs of the flanges a distance which is greater  than the distance between the wing rail and check rail, but not so great that the flange will meet the crossing nose. This is a critical distance. For wheels this is known as 'Back to Back' and for OO this should be 14.5mm (BRMSB standard), the distance between wing and check rail should be 14 mm, so there is 0.25 mm clearance between the back of the flange and the rails on either side as a set of wheelspasses through.

 

The BRSMB standards are set out here.

 

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 Just out of interest do the newer coaches have metal wheels while the other from the set have plastic ones (or plastic with metal rims)?

81F, the newer 4-wheel coaches do in fact have metal wheels. I have both sorts but as the plastic wheeled ones haven't given any trouble I have not got round yet to re-wheeling them. All bought separately or in groups so no experience of sets. Sorry.

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That is quite an old train set now. If the coaches have plastic wheels, then the flanges may have woaway, hence the derailments. it could be that the wheels needs replacing and if ao, replace the plastic wheels for metal wheels. All my rolling stock that had plastic wheels derailed more, than my rolling stock with metal wheels, so metal wheels are the better option for rolling stock.

Not looked closely at metal wheel but what stops them just shorting between the two rails?  Must be an electrical brake somewhere.  Was never a problem with 3 rails as the circuit was between the outside and middle rail but 2 rail is different.

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@Castle-Man

 

 

Not looked closely at metal wheel but what stops them just shorting between the two rails?  Must be an electrical brake somewhere.  Was never a problem with 3 rails as the circuit was between the outside and middle rail but 2 rail is different.

 

It wouldn't be an electrical break, causing the coaches to derail, Castle-Man. These 4 Wheel Coaches do not collect electricity. That is not the problem, causing your derailments.

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I agree with you there, as well walkingthedog. That's why in the past, I've replaced my plastic wheels on my rolling stock for metal wheels. I replace them like, for like. For example:

 

Plastic Spoked Wheels = Metal Spoked Wheels

Plastic 3 Hole Wheels = Metal 3 Hole Wheels

Plastic Disc Wheels = Metal Disc Wheels

 

What I do with my plastic wheels, is cut the axle in half and put them in my Sodor Scrap Co. Wagon's and my East Valley Scrap Co. Wagon's!

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Jacob Wilson

Thanks but I was not saying that derailment had anything to do a with a short cicuit.  It was a completely different question due to the talk about metal wheels.  Obviously just plain metal wheels on a metal axle would short between the two rails.  You don't need any pickup to the coaches to cause that.  Same as if you dropped a screw driver across the tracks.  The question was answered i.e. at least one wheel is isolated (I.E. an electrical break in the potential circuit.) 

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 Noiwadays wheelsets from a wide variety of manufacturers use metal wheels or wheel rims but insulate them from the axle, and so therefore from each other. This may not have been the case 60 years ago when Hornby Dublo, made by Meccano, used three rail curreent collection, but these too changed to insulated wheels in 1958/1959.  One hiccup a few years ago occured when Heljan introduced their Dogfish ballast wagon. For some unexplained reason these wagons were sold with non-insulated wheelsets (possibly a Chinese quality control glitch) and then had to supply insulated wheels retrospectively.

 

Old Trackmaster wagons which eventually found their way into the Tri-ang range in 1952 were fitted with non-insulated wheels because the Trackmaster 0-6-2T was a clockwork powered loco so it didn't matter. Triang of course changed the wheels on the wagons and on the loco to make them compatible with their 2 rail electric system.

 

Plastic wheels generally speaking are worse for spreading gunge, but in my experience the old Lima coach wheels which were metal were very bad for this. I was forever having to peel a layer of black gunge from them with a screwdriver.  It usually took the consistency and appearance of traction tyres it got so thick, even after a very short outing!!

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