R040 turntable motor

[macman44]

I have a rather elderly R040 turntable (looks generally similar to R070), and I have two questions regarding the motor used to motorize it.

1.  What is the part number for this motor, as it isn't working well (won't always start, etc), and where can I get a replacement?

2.  How can I reduce the noise that this motor/turntable makes when in operation?  The motor itself is fairly quiet in open air, but the transmitted noise echoes throughout the motor enclosure and to the mounting surface, and it's LOUD.

This turntable seems to work well, the gearing is OK, it registers properly at the exit tracks, etc.  So I would like to include it in my current layout, if I can resolve the motor issues.

Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks.

Paul.

[96RAF]

Scroll down the page here

https://www.newmodellersshop.co.uk/hornby_spares_motors_and_gears.htm

X3220

None in stock above at present but its a normal M7 motor so you could swap it out if you can’t find the full motor assy with wire harness, etc.

Peters Spares may have them.

Rob

[St1ngr4y]

Hi Paul,

 

May I ask how you control the turntable ? Do you have it connected to a 12v DC supply with an on/off switch, or do you use a controller where you can run it at a lower speed ?

 

If the former, it will sound like a dog with its leg caught in barbed wire !!

 

Ray

[olly]

are you sure it's an M7 motor not an X04 type? as the early turntables had an X04 .

could you post a picture of the motor ?

[Ruffnut Thorston]

The original versions of this turntable (R.410 type) used an X.04 / X.03 (New Type) Type motor, but fitted with a Special Brass worm.

 

This is a single-start worm, of the type later used on the X.03 (New Type) locomotive motors.

 

So, a Locomoive X.04 motor would not work, as the worm would jam in the gears...

 

There are som photos of a later X.03 pattern motor fitted to an eraly R.410 Turntable in this thread...

 

http://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/r410-motorised-turntable-jamming/?p=1

 

More recently, the Hornby turntables have been re-motored with the "M" type motor....

I think the motor mountings may have been re-tooled?

[Chrissaf]

Poor dog.

Perhaps 'stirring a bucket of bolts' would have been a less cruel description.

[macman44]

Thanks for all the replies.

 

OK, so here is a photo of the motor I have - needless to say it is totally devoid of any identification.

/media/tinymce_upload/eb8d4eb9009d4ca3598f3baf42901b1f.jpg

 

I'm not sure from Sarahagain's post whether this is an X03 or an X04 - it has a single-start brass worm.  I think it is an X04, but would like confirmation before I buy.  And if I go to Peter's Spares and order an X04, how do I know which worm I will be getting?

 

In terms of noise, I concur with the graphic description as 'stirring a bucket of balls'.  I haven't actually installed this turntable yet, just doing some bench tests.  Running at a lower voltage reduces the noise to 'a half bucket of balls', but it's still pretty terrible.  

I was wondering whether anyone had attempted to muffle the noise - e.g. inserting sound deadening material on the inside of the motor/gear housing, or mounting the TT on some kind of insulating mat, or . . . . . . ?  Because the motor itself is quite quiet.

I was planning to use a 2-pole centre-off switch with a supply of suitable voltage, once I have got the motor in and tested to see what it needs.

 

Paul.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

The X.04 motors have felt pads around the bearings on the motor shaft.

 

The X.03 (Later Type) motors do not have the felt oil pads....and a shorter shaft.

Apart from the amature shaft length...that is the only differerence...

Very late X.04 locomotive motors were in fact the X.03 (Later Type) motor specification, but fitted with the Brass two-start worm...

 

If you ordered an X.04 motor, you would get a Locomotive X.04 motor, with a brass two-start worm.

If you ordered an X.03 motor, you would get a Locomotive X.03 motor, with a plastic single-start worm.

It seems that Peter's Spares also sell motors without worms....

 

The special worms are also available....just need a worm puller to remove existing worm....and a method of fitting new worm without damaging the motor....

http://www.petersspares.com/hornby-s2375-turntable-worm-brass.ir

 

It may be worth asking if Peter's Spares could supply a motor fitted with the Turntable worm?

 

It seems that that the turntable gear is the same as used in an X.03 powered loco, and that therefore the X.03 worm should work...if it has the length to reach the gear?

 

There was a kit, Turntable Motorising Unit, R.411, which was used to motorise the R.410 Hand-Operated Turntable...

 

 X.03 (Later Type) based Turntable Motor from the R.411 Kit, and other parts...

/media/tinymce_upload/ef6c19ecf8acce9886204160e447200a.jpg

 

The problem with sound-proofing is that you could then cut the ventilation to the motor...which could then get a bit warm...

 

Really, apart from running the motor slowly, there is not much that can be done....

 

I am thinking of putting a building over the motor housing....possibly a 'sand house' with a chimney for ventilation...or a Water Tower with vents?

/media/tinymce_upload/a7c950640f2fbc3290ec14dcbd753c34.JPG

With some other parts, the turntable can be made to look pretty good...

 

BUT it will alway have the jerky "Geneva Gear" drive...and be a bit noisy in use!

/media/tinymce_upload/14f986490199033b0a624a3fd962b718.JPG

 

 

A simpler idea, using girder bridge sides...(Temporary job...with Blue-Tac!)

/media/tinymce_upload/6bb6ce0c287f54f1add4c61e8716dab1.JPG

[macman44]

Thanks, Sarah.

 

Bad news on worms.  There doesn't seem to be any way I can extract my existing worm without a special tool, which of course I don't have - and I have tried just pulling.  And the plastic worm on the X03 looks too short from Peter's illustration.

 

I will do as you suggest and ask Peter's Spares if they can supply me with an X03/X04 fitted with a turntable worm - they seem to have both motors and worms in stock.

Failing that, how feasible do you think it would be for me to fit the worm myself, using a mechanic's vice?  It looks like it is theoretically possible, but do you think there is too much risk of motor damage - bent shaft, etc.? I would still have to buy a new worm from Peter at the same time as a wormless motor, because my existing worm can't be freed from my current motor.  Definitely Plan B.

 

I will see how much noise a new motor makes at reduced voltage once I get one, and assess whether I can live with it.  Otherwise I will play with bits of flannelette in carefully selected spots inside (wouldn't want it to get into the gears or motor!).  Given the very low duty cycle of the motor, I wouldn't have thought heat build-up would be too much of an issue (but we'll see).

 

Paul.

[Fishmanoz]

Seems to me your opening post shows you don’t need a new motor as you say it is operating and operating quietly when run on its own. These motors have a reputation for bullet-proofedness and the most they should need is light lubrication (including the bearing hidden behind the magnet - make sure you slide the magnet back only a little as it will lose magnetism if taken all the way out), check of the brushes and replacement if necessary, and cleaning out the slots in the armature if clogged with dust from the brushes. That will also solve your gear pulling problem.  Then follow the advice given on noise reduction including light lubrication of the gear train. 

[macman44]

No, while the motor runs it definitely has problems:

-  I can see broken winding wires, and there is sparking between the armature and the frame as it rotates.

-  It frequently stops in such a position that it won't start again.

-  It vibrates when running

-  It consumes over 300 mA when running unloaded, and gets warm very quickly

But it is quiet in free air, relative to the noise when installed.  Not totally silent, but accepatble.

I wish I didn't have to replace/repair it, but with these problems I don't see I have any choice.

 

Paul.

[Fazy]

Why not just send the motor away for a rebuild?  You may lose the use of the TT while the motor is repaired. But will save you some head scratching. 

[Chrissaf]

http://www.scalespeed.co.uk/

Do motor rebuilds.

[Fazy]

I thought someone would stick up a link. 

 

Daft question time. I know some masters of the dark arts of the that blue stuff ( electricity) hang around here. What/why do magnates lose upto 70% of their magnetism just by disturbing them never mind removing them.

[96RAF]

 

What/why do magnates (magnets) lose upto 70% of their magnetism just by disturbing them never mind removing them.

 

Go back to schoolboy physics. When our teacher brought out the horseshoe magnet (kept in a wooden box) for use in our iron filings experiments it had a metal bar (keeper) across the poles. This was said to keep the magnetic flow ’in circuit’. If the ‘keeper’ wasn’t replaced after use the magnetism (so we were told) would run out of the poles and be lost.

 

Simples - QED. This lost magnetism leaks back into the wide world to top up gravity.

 

I just put it down to white-man’s magic. Same magic that made those jet contrails you saw in the early Tarzan films.

Rob

[Fazy]

I'd forgotten about the keeper plates but yep it dose ring a bell. 

[Chrissaf]

A somewhat truthful but comedic answer to magnetism.

.

A material that can be magnetised typically has atoms that have a number of unpaired spinning electrons that generate their own magnetic field around them. A magnet allows these unpaired electrons to organise themselves into a regimented alignment that all face the same way. Like a regiment of soldiers standing to attention on a parade ground. The regimented alignment allows the individual electron magnetic fields to aggregate together to create a much stronger magnet field that can interact with the outside world. What we know as being a magnet. Over time these unpaired electrons get tired of always standing to attention and facing the same way and start to wander off to do their own thing. As more electrons get bored with life and start to move out of alignment, then the overall magnetism weakens. Every schoolboy physics student would be aware that heat is a by product of agitated electrons and atoms, so if you apply heat to a magnet, this can also cause the electrons to become more agitated & violent and loose their alignment. A bit like lighting a bonfire in the middle of a soldier parade and the ones standing nearest to the fire are going to move away in a random fashion. Bearing in mind that motors do usually run warm to the touch. Vibration and physical shock can also impact the electron alignment too. Much like the parade ground being hit by an earthquake would do the same to the soldiers.

.

The Ron Dodd, re-magnetiser works by placing the motor magnet into a strong magnetic field that causes all these previously disrupted electrons to re-align themselves again. Thus returning the magnetism to full strength.

[macman44]

A rebuild sounds like a good idea.  Where would I go to get that done?

 

Paul.

[macman44]

OK, sorry.  I just saw the link from Chrissaf.  I will contact Scalespeed.

 

Paul.

[walkingthedog]

I thought magnates were wealthy influential people.  😆

[Fishmanoz]

And if you have to ask this question, chances are you aren’t one!  Will have resulted from one of Chris‘s bombs going off on your parade ground in your youth, or leaving your ATC monitor without its keeper overnight.