Double Track Layout

[thomson737]

Hello,

I am new to the Hornby forums so I apologies if this is the wrong section.

When I was younger, model railways was the best thing for me. It ran through the family. My Grandad, my Dad, my Uncle. My Uncle actually had O scale compared to OO gauge. He also had miniature 'sit on' railways like you see at resorts etc.

Anyway, I'm looking to get back into it and build a basic layout. It's going to fit into a 5ft x 4ft space on an MDF baseboard. Ill be looking to have a double track layout. However, would I need to controllers for both tracks? I believe I would.

On a side note, I am currently an Aviation enthusiast which took over when Doncaster Airport opened. I started collecting scale model aircraft and creating model airports. But in recent days I have suddenly wanted to see trains on the move in the model world since model aircraft are just static.

Please feel free to offer any advice, hints and tips that might be helpful for me.

Thank you

Adam

[Howbi]

Hi T737.............welcome to the Forum............you will find a lot of very usefull information if you look here..........

https://www.hornby.com/media/wysiwyg/Hornby/Forums/A_Guide_to_Getting_Started_with_Track_Extension_Packs.pdf

[mjb1961]

Hi thomson737,,,,,go digital !,,only one connection and less wiring and better control of your locos ,,,,mjb

[Fishmanoz]

In fact with DCC, it is possible to run say 3 or 4 trains across your 2 ovals and sidings with one controller and connection.  With DC, 2 ovals, 2 controllers for 2 trains.

 

i would suggest some research first.  Google Brian Lambert and read through his excellent site, particularly his DCC pages.

[RDS]

I agree entirely with mjb1961 and Fishy, go straight to DCC.  

Simply put, It means that you control the Trains, not the Track.

[thomson737]

 Many thanks for the immediate responses. I've certainly looked into DCC. Might have to hold back a little though with the price. For now I will probably operate single trains on the double circuit but switch between coaches and wagons etc. We've actually got plenty of stuff from back in the day, stored in the loft the majority of it.

Again, thanks for the help. Ill keep you updated if I need to.

[poliss]

The eLink DCC controller costs less than the Hornby HM2000 DC controller.

[thomson737]

  Update:

I'm having problems running the trains. Very jerky around the whole layout. Wheels almost spin with too much power around most areas.

So, some things to note: I tried the basic oval set (Cornish Belle) and still have the same problem. I purchased another AC Adaptor to use. I've tried multiple loco's including the Cornish Belle itself. Track has been kept stored in box in my bedroom so no chance of it been damp.

I really have no idea.

Any help / suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks

Adam

[GWR LNER fan 4472]

 Check that all conections are conected properly, i.e. controler, track, loco interior wires etc. If you've been storing the trains in your attic, they might've suffered conditions that are too hot and/or too cold. General maintenance should be carried out on all locos i.e. cleaning wheels, wheel - motor connections, motors and all the other general stuff. Have a look at the Hornby Service Sheet section under 'Help &  Advice'. I've got a 2007 Flying Scotsman that is very jerky, but easily sortable with a bit of cleaning. The speed problem you talk about, I'm not farmiliar with, does it happen at all speeds settings on your controler? It might be down to (again) loose conections.

[GWR LNER fan 4472]

Deleted - double post.

[Chrissaf]

If you are using track and rolling stock that has been stored for years (as you have inferred) regardless of where it was stored. It will all need a thoroughly good clean. Locos & rolling stock need to be cleaned and serviced. Oils dry out, grease hardens. This all causes drag on moving parts. For example does the rolling stock that the locos with spinning wheels are pulling roll along freely after being pushed by hand, they should continue rolling and not stop abruptly. Jerkiness can be caused typically by dirty wheels (and/or pick up contacts) on dirty track. The finger test, does running your finger along the track result with a black mark on your finger. Even if your finger is clean, the track may still be tarnished. How tight are the fish-plates joining the track pieces together, electrical continuity is reliant upon a very small contact area between joiners and track. Everything in the path between the controller and the loco motor needs to be checked for cleanliness and firm contact.

[thomson737]

 I have removed the body shells and given each a good clean. Certainly quite a bit of fluff and stuff. I suspect it could be the track. I read somewhere to use white spirit? Alternatively someone said to give the trains a good run for 15 mins or so to get them back into smooth working order. I'm not sure about that. The trains certainly shoot off compared to a gradual start.

[81F]

 I would also look at the wheels on your locos I found that small dark grey deposits build up in places which cause jerkiness.

 

Interestingly I dont gt so much of a problem with DCC

[poliss]

I prefer to use lighter fluid. It doesn't smell, unlike white spirit. When clean, I use my homemade track cleaning car to keep it clean.

[thomson737]

 Thanks for all the help. Ordered a few things to get underway.

[thomson737]

 If the trains run well on higher speed does that suggest the tracks or wheels are dirty? I would of thought the current would be the same regardless of how much your turn the controller up. I was thinking is it in fact my controller?

I'm still working on cleaning everything just in case it is the dirt that is the problem.

To give you an idea, I recorded a basic idea on what is happening when the speed is low. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-gFpYBBIP8

[Chrissaf]

I would of thought the current would be the same regardless of how much your turn the controller up.

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Not true, the higher the voltage, the more current gets forced through a constant resistance. Ignoring for a moment DC Analogue controllers that use variable DC pulse widths. A basic voltage varying DC controller will, in principle, conform to ohms law.

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Current = Voltage divided by Resistance

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If Resistance is constant, then Current must increase if the Voltage goes up. This is proven by the ohms law maths formula above.

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Examples:

0.5 amp = 5 volts / 10 ohms

1 amp = 10 volts / 10 ohms

2 amp = 20 volts / 10 ohms

and so on

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Given that a loco travelling faster requires more power, thus more current, to be delivered to the electric motor. And if your controller knob is in a fixed position inferring that voltage is constant (relatively speaking). Then your YouTube video is demonstrating (because the loco has dramatic speed changes) that your resistance is not constant. Ohms law above, proves that too. Dirty track, poor track joints, dirty wheels, poor wheel pick up performance can affect resistance, thus not making it the constant ohms law electrical parameter that it should be.

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Based purely on observations of watching your video, the erratic movement of the loco is generating lots of rapidly changing dynamic forces on the loose laid un-pinned track. It's possible that there is a doggy connection somewhere (possibly the power connecting clip) that is being aggravated by the track movements resulting in intermittent power losses. The rapid acceleration / deceleration of the loco seems systematic of complete intermittent loss of power reaching the loco motor i.e the loco is not slowing down or speeding up gracefully.

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Alternatively, If the loco runs at a consistent speed on a different controller speed setting, then I would suspect the controller itself. We can't see the controller in the video, but if it is really old it may be using a mechanical rheostat output. The mechanical wiper may be intermittent (intermittent changes in the wiper contact resistance) when in the position that has the loco erratic behavior.

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You could try substituting the controller with a PP9 (the large 9 volt battery) or a 6 volt lantern battery cell, wired directly to the track. If the loco then runs at a constant speed, then that would seem to indicate that the controller is at fault.

[Rog RJ]

Having looked at the video I would say it could be dirt on the wheels, track or pickups, or it could be a loose connection on the loco or from the controller to the track.  Loose fishplates can also cause this problem due to the vibration from the moving loco.

 

Follow Chrissaf's advice and try to localise what's causing it.

[thomson737]

 I'm certainly thinking it is the controller at fault. I've honestly spent most of today cleaning the track and trains several times to ensure all that is clean - one of the basic eliminations for me before going into anything technical. My current controller is the R965.

[Chrissaf]

Inside a R965

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Please try my substitute with battery tip to eliminate (or not) the controller from the equation.

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The slide switch (red looking item in top right) has a very cheap basic internal construction. They can after many years be a source of intermittent connectivity. The power going to the track will be passing through that switch.

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The black square below it, is the voltage adjusting potentiometer. The type shown in the photo looks to be 'carbon track'. These components too can develop worn spots somewhere in the travel of the internal wiper. The track current wont be passing through this potentiometer, but it does control the output voltage by adjusting the operation of the IC just above it.

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The IC in turn controls the output semi-conductor device to the left of it (probably a triac). The brown disk stuck to the semi-conductor is a thermistor. This will provide the over-heating shutdown protection.

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The R965 is a very basic early Hornby controller. Its modern near equivalent (but less powerful) is the R8250.

[mjb1961]

 Many thanks for the immediate responses. I've certainly looked into DCC. Might have to hold back a little though with the price. For now I will probably operate single trains on the double circuit but switch between coaches and wagons etc. We've actually got plenty of stuff from back in the day, stored in the loft the majority of it.

Again, thanks for the help. Ill keep you updated if I need to.

This is your problem ,it's old and decrepit ,dried up ,your rolling stock will be fine but you could do with new track ,nickel silver is best and a new modern loco and control system ,for around a £100 you can get an elink controlled western master set ,do yourself a favour and treat yourself ,you will only end up disheartend before you even get  back into the hobby if you keep messing around with that old stuff ,get it sold on eBay and buy a new set ,,,,,,

[Howbi]

@thomson737..............the R965 controller is notorious for cutting out when overloaded and that's easily done.........I would suggest you invest in the Hornby R8250 standard controller @ £22-49 with member's discount as a temporary measure until you decide to go DCC........HB

[poliss]

The R.250 comes without a transformer howbi. That's an extra £16.99. The R.250 is also well known for cutting out when overloaded.

The R.250 doesn't even have terminals for accessories.

[Howbi]

@poliss.........since 737 is already using a transformer, probably the C990 which has the same plug on it so he would not need to buy another one............ 😀..........HB

[poliss]

I know what I'd buy if I was DC, and it's not the R.8250.