garrettendi Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 I'm following the Track Mat style layout, just as a first simple project (I plan to expand later) and I currently have track packs B and C to install this weekend. I've seen in the documentation in the sticky in General Discussion that it is best to connect the controller to an oval, but I don't have a power clip, just the straight power track. If I want to eventually reach pack F and also keep the eLink at the back end of the track (thus keeping it "out of the way", I'll need to connect to the siding at the back, which is the ideal place to put the power track. Why is it best to connect to an oval? Will it really make a difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 As the author of the document mentioned I make these comments..The reason why you shouldn't connect the controller to a siding is that the power to the rest of the layout is totally reliant upon passing through the small DCC clips fitted to the point of that particular siding. The DCC point clips rely on mechanical contact, thus can easily loosen over time and generate a small resistance. Passing an electrical current through a resistance generates heat. There have been reports on this forum, where the DCC clip has overheated to the point of glowing red and melting the surrounding point plastic (extreme I know, but it has been reported) thus to make the connection on the siding is a potential fire risk..The alternative option would be to use a Hornby R8242 Power clip instead of the R8241 power track, which can be used at any convenient location within reason. The R8241 power track can either be replaced with a R600 straight or used as is with the connection terminals unconnected. My own preference would be not to use Hornby Power Tracks / Power Clips at all, but make a direct soldered wire connection to the outside or underside of the rails at your preferred location. Directly soldered wires eliminate all sorts of power transfer problems that power tracks / power clips can introduce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrettendi Posted September 26, 2016 Author Share Posted September 26, 2016 Hi Chrissaf, thanks your comments. So if I read the documentation right, a power clip on the outside oval of track pack F should be safe with regards to overheating points? Surely the current would still pass through the points on the circuit? I'm not good enough with solder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 Its all about trying to minimise risk and maximise reliability. Yes you are correct, current will always have to pass through DCC point clips somewhere on the layout, not all the time though as which clips pass power will depend upon where each running loco is on the layout at that time. But placing the controller on the sidings guarantees that all the current for all the locos has to pass through those siding DCC point clips all the time regardless of where the locos are currently located on the layout..Since you fear soldering, this following option is not for you. But my personal preference is not to use Hornby DCC point clips at all. I would run a pair of power bus wires under the layout and make soldered connections to track (droppers) at strategic locations over the whole layout, removing the need for DCC point clips altogether..PS - It doesn't have to be the outside oval. The inside oval will do just as well. Any of the three red highlighted track pieces in the drawing below could be a Hornby R8241 Power track../media/tinymce_upload/aaac578ff820430843e7d042c02fbf6f.jpg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrettendi Posted September 26, 2016 Author Share Posted September 26, 2016 That's fair enough. But is the power clip on the outer oval at least safe? I suffer from anxiety disorder, and it's really worrying me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 Well its safer than putting it on a siding......there are 1,000s of Hornby layouts using DCC point clips. Instances of reported overheating are rare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrettendi Posted September 26, 2016 Author Share Posted September 26, 2016 Well its safer than putting it on a siding......there are 1,000s of Hornby layouts using DCC point clips. Instances of reported overheating are rare.Thanks! I'll go that route, and keep an eye on my points. Also, do I need to be careful how many and where the locos are with regards to the circuit/overheating? I plan to have no more than three locos running at any one time, most likely one on each oval and a third in the sidings, but going back and forth between ovals/sidings. Is that likely to be ok? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 If using the eLink 1 amp power supply, you won't be able to run more than four anyway. I haven't done any analysis of DCC point clip overheating reports (not that there is enough information in them anyway to do so), but I would suspect that they are more likely using the Hornby 4 amp power supply and be running many more simultaneous locos than you plan to. Also, the TrakMat layouts are relatively small and compact and shouldn't (in theory) strain your DCC point clips unduly. Just keep a check and look out for any clips that appear to work loose over time and replace them with NEW ones. Also look for any discolouration of the clips over time. This could be an indicator of heating up. If in doubt replace them, they are not expensive to keep a stock of new clips on hand..PS - When replacing a DCC point clip, take special care to clean the contact points where the clips will lodge against the rail sides as part of the replacement activity. A new clip against a dirty rail will not help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrettendi Posted September 26, 2016 Author Share Posted September 26, 2016 Thank you very very much Chrissaf for your patience and excellent explanation. As said, I suffer from anxiety disorder, and this really got me in a state this morning. I've taken on board all your advice and calmed down... Thankfully I'm already making a trip to my local model shop this Saturday anyway, so I'll make sure to purchase a digital power clip while I'm there. It's less than three quid and can you really put a price on safe running.... It just makes sense. I assume it doesn't make much difference where on the oval I put the clip? I was thinking at the back (the top-left of your diagram), as it keeps the eLink nicely out of the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 It's as good a place as any. Just remember, the R8242 power clips fit to specially formed locations on the track. The underside moulding of the track usually has an indicator where the clip fits. if the track is laid and pinned down (thus making it difficult to see these marks) look carefully along the underside of the metal rail. You should see a slightly larger gap between the underside of the rail and the top side of the plastic base where the clip is supposed to be fitted. There are two gaps about one sleeper apart to accommodate both prongs of the clip. A clip can only easily be fitted at these locations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrettendi Posted September 26, 2016 Author Share Posted September 26, 2016 Thanks Chrissaf. I'll also look up images and videos on Google to help me get an idea of how the slots exactly look. Cheers for your guidance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDS Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 I have 64 of the power clips on my layout and (touch wood) never had a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjb1961 Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 Hi ,Garrettendi ,,,,for starters don't worry ,your points won't overheat ,set on fire or anything else ,,,the person who had a problem with those point clips probably didn't know what he was doing ,I like thousands of others have point clips and have no problem what so ever ,,when you start laying your track just follow the instructions with your set ,connect your elink to the track as instructed and the other side of it to your pc and you are all set up ,some people including myself use WIRED FISHPLATES to connect your elink / or controller to your track via a terminal block ,,,,don't worry ,,,good luck and please come back for more info if you need to ,,,Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted September 27, 2016 Share Posted September 27, 2016 Martin, just to clarify for yourself and others, Chris having already given excellent advice to the OP who is taking that advice. Where you rely on electrical connection via 2 pieces of metal touching each other, rather than a soldered connection or a properly designed plug and socket, the touching metal may be subject to corrosion over time, or may work loose such that the contact area decreases, with the result being the joint becomes higher resistance than you would want. If you then pass a reasonable current through that joint, there will be localised heating, possibly leading to more corrosion, more heating and the risk of melting adjacent plastic and ultimately fire. The more the current involved the higher the risk. Typical contacts on a layout that may be subject to these risks are power clips, points, fishplates and DCC point clips. The more current you are passing through any of these, the higher the risk. The risk is low of course but nonetheless there and best avoided or minimised. Connecting via a siding and therefore passing all your current through one set of DCC point clips is certainly not minimising the risk. Connecting all of your power via a pair of fishplates is also asking for exactly the same trouble, but distributing it around lots of fishplates is low risk although not best practice. And the person who had the problem with the melted point he had to replace - he is one of our more experienced contributors and modellers over a very long period. I can assure you he knows what he is doing. The risk is real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Thanks Fishy for expressing the same views that I would have written had I replied myself. I decided not to provide a similar response to yours as that would just look like I was being too sensitive to criticism and trying to defend my advice..There are many who take the view 'it works for me' thus it MUST be correct. The risk is slight, but why not take every measure possible to reduce it. It makes absolute sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrettendi Posted September 28, 2016 Author Share Posted September 28, 2016 ...Typical contacts on a layout that may be subject to these risks are power clips, points, fishplates and DCC point clips.... Hi Fishmanoz.. Are you saying therefore that by my using the power clip I open myself to the same fire risk? This seems to contradict what was said earlier, about power clips being safer - although I concede not as safe as soldering. The nature of my layout and my inability to physically solder renders that option impossible. This risk of fire is making me wonder if I'm in the right hobby.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Garrett, I don't think it was Fishy's intention to scare you. Yes there have been reports of DCC clips overheating. But the basic design of the Hornby track power clip has not significantly altered in more than 50 years. In all that time there has never been any instances (that I am aware of) of litigation arisen from using them on any safety issues..They are in essence safe. Fishy was just highlighting a purely theoretical risk based upon the spring metallic contact nature of the plug design. I'm sure upon reflection, Fishy would revise his comment and put the R8241 & R8242 power connectors into the 'properly designed plug and socket' category..If the R8241 and R8242 power connectors have any issues, it is one of intermittently loosing power connectivity. It is that reason why many choose to replace these connectors with directly soldered wires to the track. And to remove an eyesore from view if building a highly detailed scenic layout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrettendi Posted September 28, 2016 Author Share Posted September 28, 2016 Thank you kindly for your further explanation Chrissaf. Fishy - I apologise for misinterpreting what you said, no harm was intended! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrettendi Posted September 28, 2016 Author Share Posted September 28, 2016 Just caught your edit Chrissaf, thanks again for explaining the situation (I think my post above is now locked from editing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Yes, the edit window is only 10 minutes..TIP: to extend the edit window beyond 10 minutes. Open a fresh browser tab showing your post whilst the blue 'Edit' button is still visible. As long as this browser tab is left open and not refreshed. The post can remain editable for hours..If you look at the timings on my reply. The edit is shown 15 minutes after the original post..PS - I replaced my original post with my final edit (completely reworded) because I realised I had completely mis-read Fishy's original comment myself. During the review, I saw the text that your post referred to regarding the power clip being shown in the 'at risk' category..If you want the post containing....Thank you kindly for your further explanation Chrissaf.Fishy - I apologise for misinterpreting what you said, no harm was intended!.deleted. Then go to the post and click the 'Report' button. In the text box that opens, request admin to delete the post for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrettendi Posted October 10, 2016 Author Share Posted October 10, 2016 @Chrissaf What wires do I need to connect an eLink to the power clip? I just have the plain wires that came with the box that has exposed ends to the metal. No pins or plugs. Can I buy the wire on Amazon? I have the power clip but I didn't know you couldn't just plug the wire straight in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 As far as I know either the power clip or the power track will take bare end wires, preferably with the ends tinned with solder to stiffen them up, although you can buy crimp on ends to make the ends a bit firmer. so the wire you already have is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 The bare ended wires can be made power clip compatible by crimping / soldering X8011 Terminal Pins onto the ends of the bare wires. The Terminal Pins then push into the holes in the power clip connector..https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/pin-terminal-50-pack.html?___SID=U.Below is a pasted extract from the above Hornby web page:"For use with Hornby track power clips, power connection tracks (R8241, R8206), R044/R046/R047 switches, controller wires, old-style point motors and motorised signals etc. Can be crimped or soldered to the ends of wires." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrettendi Posted October 10, 2016 Author Share Posted October 10, 2016 How hard is crimping? What exactly is it? Is there a ready-done alternative I can use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 For these particular terminals Crimping is very easy indeed. You can buy a special tool very cheaply, but for this particular style of crimp you can just as easily use a standard pair of snub nose pliers. Crimping is basically laying the bared wire in the 'U' shaped trough and folding over the side flaps to trap the wire securely in the connector.......see image below..Ready made wires are not very easy to come by, so it is far easier to make your own..Apologies for the poor focus, but the base photo I used in my explanation image below has been extensively magnified../media/tinymce_upload/6a05cee07966eb197fcef1f0cfebc2f1.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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